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Margolis argues in support of G20 austerity policy

(G-20ÀÇ ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥ ¹æ¹ý·Ð¿¡ ´ëÇÑ ÁöÁö vs. ¹Ý´ë ÀÎÅͺä)

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August 9, 2010

¹ø¿ªÀÎ: Å丶½º ¹Ú (°æÁ¦´åÄÄ: www.GyungJe.com)

¹ø¿ªÀÎ ÇØ¼³: ¸¶°ñ¸®½º´Â ¹Ì±¹ ºúÀÇ ¼öÁØÀÌ Á¤µµ¸¦ Áö³ªÃƱ⠶§¹®¿¡ ±äÃàÀ» ÅëÇØ ºúÀ» ÁÙ¿©¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í ÁÖÀåÇÑ´Ù. °Å±â±îÁö´Â Æú Á¦À̵µ Å« À̰߾øÀÌ ´ëÈ­¸¦ À̲ø¾î °¬Áö¸¸ ºúÀ» ÁÙÀÌ´Â ¹æ¹ý·Ð¿¡ µé¾î°¡¼­ µÎ »ç¶÷Àº Ãæµ¹Çϱ⠽ÃÀÛÇÑ´Ù.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º´Â ºúû»ê ³ë·Â¿¡ ¸ðµç ±¹¹ÎÀÌ ´Ù Èñ»ýÇØ¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í ÁÖÀåÇÏ´Â ¹Ý¸é¿¡ ÆúÁ¦ÀÌ´Â ºúÀ¸·Î ȣȲÀ» ´©¸±¶§ °¡Àå Å« ºÎ¸¦ ÃàÀûÇß´ø ¼öÆÛ »ó·ùÃþÀÌ ¸ÕÀú ¼Ö¼±¼ö¹üÇØ¾ß ÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÌ µµ¸®°¡ ¾Æ´Ñ°¡, °Ô´Ù°¡ ±ÝÀ¶±¸Á¦ÀÚ±ÝÀ» ±¹¹ÎµéÀÇ Ç÷¼¼·Î ¹Þ¾Æ³»¼­ Á׾´Â ¸ñ¼ûÀ» °ÇÁø ¼öÆÛ »ó·ù°èÃþÀÌ ÀڽŵéÀ» ±¸ÇØÁØ Áß»êÃþ°ú ¼­¹Îµé¿¡°Ô ºúû»ê¿¡ ¶Ç Èñ»ýÇØ ´Þ¶ó°í ÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÌ °ú¿¬ ¿ÇÀº ÀÏÀΰ¡¶ó°í ¹Ý¹®ÇÑ´Ù.

Áö±ÝÀÇ Áß»êÃþ°ú ¼­¹ÎÃþÀÇ »ç¶÷µéÀº ÇÑ´ÞÇÑ´Þ ¿¬¸íÇϱ⵵ ¹Ù»Û »óȲ¿¡¼­ ¼¼±ÝÀ» ´õ ³»¶ó°í Çϱ⠺¸´Ù´Â ³â°£ 1 Æ®¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯¶ó´Â ¾öû³­ Ç÷¼¼¸¦ ½á ´ë´Â ±¹¹æºÎ ¿¹»êÀ» ¸ÕÀú ÁÙÀÌ´Â °ÍÀÌ ¼ø¼­°¡ ¾Æ´Ï³Ä´Â °ÍÀÌ Æú Á¦ÀÌÀÇ ÁÖÀåÀ̱⵵ ÇÏ´Ù.

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Eric Margolis debates Paul Jay about the ways to reduce government debt

The Real News NetworkÀÇ Æú Á¦ÀÌ vs. ¿¡¸¯ ¸¶°ñ¸®½º - Á¤ºÎ ºÎä °¨¼Ò ¹æ¹ý·Ð ³íÀï

PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay. And joining us from our studio in Washington is Eric Margolis. He's the author of American Raj: Resolving the Conflict between the West and the Muslim World. And he writes at EricMargolis.com and in many newspapers around the world. Thanks for joining us, Eric.

The Real News Network (TRNN)ÀÇ ÆíÁýÀÎ, Æú Á¦ÀÌ: TRNN¿¡ ¿À½Å °ÍÀ» ȯ¿µÇÕ´Ï´Ù. Àú´Â Æú Á¦ÀÌ ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ¿À´ÃÀº ÀúÈñ ¿ö½ÌÅÏ ½ºÆ©µð¿À·Î ¿¡·ó ¸¶°ñ¸®½º¾¾¸¦ ¸ð¼Ì½À´Ï´Ù. ¸¶°ñ¸®½º¾¾´Â "¾î¸Þ·òÄ­ ·ÖÁö: ¼­±¸¿Í ¸Ó½½¸² ¼¼°èÀÇ ºÐÀï ÇØ°á"ÀÇ ÀúÀÚÀ̽ʴϴÙ. ±×¸®°í ±×´Â EricMagolis.comÀ» ºñ·ÔÇØ ¼¼°è °¢±¹ ´Ù¼öÀÇ ½Å¹®¿¡ Ä®·³À» ¾²°í °è½Ê´Ï´Ù. ¿ÍÁּż­ °¨»çÇÕ´Ï´Ù, ¿¡·ó¾¾.

ERIC MARGOLIS, JOURNALIST: My pleasure.

¿¡·ó ¸¶°ñ¸®½º, Àú³Î¸®½ºÆ®: ±â»Þ´Ï´Ù.

JAY: One of the things you've been writing recently is in praise of the austerity measures in the UK. You were supportive of the G-20 call for halving the deficit by 2013. You've been saying America desperately needs austerity measures, even though they'll be unpopular. Why do you think so?

Á¦ÀÌ: ÃÖ±Ù¿¡ ¾²½Å ±Ûµé Áß¿¡ ¿µ±¹ÀÇ ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥¿¡ ´ëÇØ¼­ μÛÀ» º¸³»´Â ±ÛÀ» ¾²¼Ì½À´Ï´Ù. ¶ÇÇÑ 2013³â±îÁö ¿¹»êÀûÀÚ¸¦ Àý¹ÝÀ¸·Î ÁÙÀÌÀÚ´Â G-20 ¼±¾ð¹®µµ ÁöÁöÇϼ̱¸¿ä. ±¹¹Îµé·Î ºÎÅÍ È¯¿µÀ» ¹ÞÁö ¸øÇÏ´õ¶óµµ ¹Ì±¹µµ ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥ÀÌ °£ÀýÈ÷ ÇÊ¿äÇÏ´Ù°í ÇØ ¿À¼ÌÁÒ. ¿Ö ±×·¸°Ô »ý°¢ÇϽʴϱî?

MARGOLIS: Debt is what caused the financial crisis of 2007-2008. The United States is drowning in debt. Its whole financial system is being debauched and it could topple any day now. The United States can't pay its bills. It runs on borrowed money. In fact, the United States, as I've been writing, is addicted to debt and to war. And the red Chinese now own $1 trillion of American debt. The only way the American government can keep working is by selling IOUs to the Chinese. This is an untenable and unacceptable situation.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ºúÀÌ 2007-2008 ±ÝÀ¶»çŸ¦ ºú¾î³Â½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹Àº Áö±Ý ºú¿¡ Àá±â°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±¸Á¶ÀÚü°¡ Ÿ¶ôÇ߱⠶§¹®¿¡ ¾ðÁ¦ ³Ñ¾î°¥Áö ¸ð¸¨´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹Àº ÁöºÒ´É·ÂÀÌ ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ±×µ¿¾È ³» ±Û¿¡ ½á ¿ÔµíÀÌ ¹Ì±¹Àº ºú°ú ÀüÀï¿¡ Áßµ¶µÇ¾î ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×¸®°í Áß±¹Àº ¹Ì±¹ ±¹Ã¤¸¦ 1 Æ®¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯¾îÄ¡¸¦ ¼ÒÀ¯Çϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹ÀÌ Áß±¹°úÀÇ ²öÀ» À¯ÁöÇϱâ À§Çؼ­´Â Áß±¹¿¡ ä±ÇÀ» °è¼Ó ÆÄ´Â °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍÀº ÁöÁöÇÒ ¼öµµ ¹Þ¾ÆµéÀÏ ¼öµµ ¾ø´Â »óȲÀÎ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù.

JAY: Well, you'd think it'd be the people loaning the money would be more worried. I mean, if you're in that situation, it's the lenders that are more at risk than the borrower.

Á¦ÀÌ: Èì...µ·Àº ºô·ÁÁØ »ç¶÷ÀÌ ´õ °ÆÁ¤ÇØ¾ß ÇÏ´Â °Í ¾Æ´Ñ°¡¿ä? ´Ù½Ã ¸»Çؼ­, ÁÖ·Î À§ÇèÀº 乫ÀÚº¸´Ù ä±ÇÀÚ¿¡°Ô ÀÖ´Â °Í ¾Æ´Ï³Ä´Â ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.

MARGOLIS: Well, [inaudible] the Chinese are not doing this for commercial reasons—well, they are, to promote trade with the US, but they know they have tremendous leverage over the American government. And the problem is that it shows the ascendancy of Wall Street now has become the center of power in the United States. For example, the main supporter of Obama when he was running was Goldman Sachs.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: Áß±¹Àº »ó¾÷ÀûÀÎ ¸ñÀû¿¡¼­ ±×·¯°í ÀÖ´Â °Ô ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù - ¹°·Ð ¹Ì±¹°úÀÇ ¹«¿ªÀ» µµ¸ðÇϱâ À§ÇÑ °ÍÀ̱⵵ ÇÏÁÒ. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ±×µéÀº ¹Ì±¹Á¤ºÎ¿¡ ¸·´ëÇÑ ·¹¹ö¸®Áö¸¦ °¡Áö°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â »ç½Çµµ Àß ¾Ë°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¹®Á¦´Â ¿ù½ºÆ®¸´ÀÌ ¹Ì±¹ ±Ç·ÂÀÇ Á߽ɿ¡ ³õ¿© ÀÖ´Ù´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù. ÇÑ ¿¹·Î, ¿À¹Ù¸¶ Èĺ¸ÀÇ ´ëÇ¥ÀûÀÎ ÈÄ¿øÀÚ°¡ °ñµå¸¸ ½Ï½º¿´¾úÁÒ.

JAY: But the crisis of 2008 wasn't state debt. It was Wall Street speculation and collapse.

Á¦ÀÌ: ÇÏÁö¸¸ 2008³â »çÅ´ Á¤ºÎÀÇ ºúÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó ¿ù½ºÆ®¸´ÀÇ Åõ±â¿Í ºØ±«°¡ ¾Æ´Ï¾ú³ª¿ä?

MARGOLIS: Well, yes. It was debt, I said. It was debt. It's all kinds of debt.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ºúÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù. Á¦°¡ ºúÀ̶ó°í ÇßÁÒ? ¿Â°® Á¾·ùÀÇ ºÎä¿´½À´Ï´Ù.

JAY: Private, not public. I mean, it became public because the public was asked and agreed to—through the administration, to funnel trillions of dollars back into Wall Street.

Á¦ÀÌ: Á¤ºÎÀÇ ºúÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó »çÀû (ÇÁ¶óÀ̺ø) ÀÎ ºú. ±×¸®°ï Á¤ºÎÀÇ ºúÀÌ µÇ¾úÁÒ - ¼ö Æ®¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯¸¦ ¿ù½ºÆ®¸´À¸·Î »© µ¹¸± ¼ö ÀÖµµ·Ï ÇàÁ¤ºÎ¿¡¼­ ±¹¹Îµé¿¡°Ô ¿ä±¸Çß°í µ¿ÀÇµÈ °ÍÀ̶ó´Â ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.

MARGOLIS: That's quite true. But the US government cannot raise enough in taxes now, so it has to finance its current and future operations through ever larger debt demands, which are undermining the commercial markets and jeopardizing it. I've just come from Wall Street. I've been talking to leading money managers. I manage money myself. And I can tell you that people are really very, very nervous. They say the system is very fragile, and one event could set the thing into crisis again or could topple the banks and make liquidity vanish. So we are drowning in debt.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ´ç¿¬È÷ ¸Â´Â ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÁö¸¸ Áö±ÝÀº ¹Ì±¹ Á¤ºÎ°¡ ¼¼±ÝÀ» ¿Ã¸± ¼ö ¾ø´Â »óȲÀÔ´Ï´Ù. µû¶ó¼­ ÇöÀç¿Í ¹Ì·¡ÀÇ ÀÚ±ÝÀ» µ¿¿øÇϱâ À§Çؼ± ´õ Å« ºúÀ» Á®¾ßÇÏÁÒ. ±×°Ç ½ÃÀåÀ» Àá½Ä½Ã۰í À§ÇèÀ§¿¡ ¿Ã·Á ³õ´Â ÀÏÀÔ´Ï´Ù. Àú´Â ±Ý¹æ ¿ù½ºÆ®¸´¿¡ ´Ù³à¿Ô½À´Ï´Ù. ´ëÇ¥ÀûÀÎ ÆÝµå¸Å´ÏÀúµé°ú À̾߱⸦ ³ª´³ÁÒ. Á¦ Àڽŵµ ÆÝµå¸¦ ¿î¿µÇϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¸»¾¸µå¸± ¼ö ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀº »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¸Å¿ì ¸Å¿ì ±äÀåÇϰí ÀÖ´Ù´Â °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀº (°æÁ¦)±¸Á¶°¡ ¸Å¿ì ¿¬¾àÇØ¼­ ¹®Á¦ Çϳª¸¸ ÅÍÁ®µµ »çÅÂÁö°æÀ¸·Î ´Ù½Ã ¸»·Áµé ¼ö Àְųª ÀºÇàµéÀÌ ³Ñ¾î °¥ ¼öµµ ÀÖ°í ÀÚ±Ý À¯µ¿ÀÌ °æ»öµÉ ¼öµµ ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. °á±¹ ¿ì¸° ºú¿¡ Àá±â°í ÀÖ´Â °ÅÁÒ.

JAY: Okay. There was a Canadian named Bob Blair who was—he passed away a couple of years ago, but he took a company, an oil and gas company in Alberta that became known as Nova [Chemicals] Corp.—it began around $8 million a year. When he retired, it was $8 billion a year. And last time we were in this big debt crisis, in the early '90s and such, he started a campaign which called, let's go where the money is; the rich should pay down the debt. It's not that there's not enough wealth in the society, he said. He said it's that the governments just don't have the guts to tax the rich. So there's plenty of money in the United States to pay down the debt. I mean, if one were to tax some of the speculative gains that were made over the last 10, 15 years, the debt could be paid down rather quickly. So I'm asking you, if it's so important to pay down the debt, then why not go where the money is?

Á¦ÀÌ: ¿ÀÄÉÀÌ. ¸î³âÀü ÀÛ°íÇÏ°í ¾ø´Â ij³ª´Ù ±¹ÀûÀÇ ¹ä ºí·¡¾î ¶ó´Â »ç¶÷ÀÌ ¾Ë¹úŸ¿¡ ³ë¹Ù(È­ÇÐ)¶ó´Â ¿øÀ¯ °³½º ȸ»ç¸¦ ¼¼¿ü½À´Ï´Ù. ÃʱâÀÇ ¸ÅÃâÀÌ 8¹é¸¸ ´Þ·¯ Á¤µµ ‰ç¾úÁÒ. ±×°¡ ÀºÅðÇßÀ» ´ç½ÃÀÇ ¸ÅÃâÀº 80¾ï´Þ·¯·Î ¼ºÀåÇß½À´Ï´Ù. Áö³­ 90³â´ë Ãʹݿ¡ ºÎä»çŰ¡ ¶Ç ÀÖ¾úÀ» ¶§ ±×´Â "µ·ÀÌ ÀÖ´Â °÷¿¡¼­ ºÎÅÍ ½ÃÀÛÇÏÀÚ"¶ó°í Çϸ鼭 ºÎÀÚµéÀÌ ºúÀ» °±¾Æ¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í ÁÖÀåÇß½À´Ï´Ù. »çȸ¿¡ µ·ÀÌ ÃæºÐÈ÷ ¾ø´Â °ÍÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó Á¤Ä¡ÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ºÎÀÚµéÀÇ ¼¼±ÝÀ» ¿Ã¸± ¹è¯ÀÌ ¾ø´Ù°í ¸»Çß½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹¿£ ºÎ並 °¨¼Ò½ÃŰ´Â µ¥ ÇÊ¿äÇÑ µ·ÀÌ ¸¹½À´Ï´Ù. Áö³­ 10-15³âµ¿¾È ±ÝÀ¶Åõ±â·Î ¾öû³ª°Ô ¹ø µ·¿¡ ´ëÇØ¼­¸¸ ¼¼±ÝÀ» ¸Å°Üµµ ºúÀº ±Ý¹æ ÁÙ¾îµé °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¡¼­ ¿©Â庸´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù. ºúÀ» °±¾Æ°¡´Â °ÍÀÌ ±×·¸°Ô Áß¿äÇÏ´Ù¸é ¿Ö Á¤ºÎ´Â µ·ÀÌ ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀ» ¸ÕÀú °ø·«ÇÏÁö ¾Ê´Â °Ì´Ï±î?

MARGOLIS: Well, there are two ways of doing it. Yes, Americans are not taxed enough. And I'm a taxpayer, an American taxpayer, and I have—and it hurts me to say it, but it's true, particularly the rich: the Bush tax cuts were really intolerable. They were a giveaway to the wealthy and they were not right. I mean, for hedge fund managers who are making $50 million a year to pay 15 percent total tax is scandalous. But let's look at the other side of the coin, and that is: the American defense department, the Pentagon, consumes 50 percent of the world's defense spending—50 percent. It is incredible, at a time when the American deficit is at $1.4 trillion for this year, 2010, that the Pentagon is increasing defense spending by 6 percent.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: µÎ°¡Áö ¹æ¹ýÀÌ ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¸Â½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹ÀεéÀº ¼¼±ÝÀ» Àû°Ô ³»°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³ªµµ ¼¼³³ÀÚÀ̱⠶§¹®¿¡ ³ª¿¡°Ôµµ ºÒÀÌÀÍÀÌ ¿À´Â °ÍÀ̰ÚÁö¸¸, ±×°Ô ¸Â´Â ¾ê±âÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ƯÈ÷ ºÎÀÚµéÀÌ ±×·¸½ººó´Ù. ºÎ½ÃÀÇ ¼¼±Ý»è°¨Àº ÁöÅÊÇϱâ Èûµç °ÍÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ±×ÀÇ Á¤Ã¥µéÀº ºÎÀڵ鿡°Ô ¼±¹°À» ÁÖ´Â °ÝÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ³â°£ 5õ¸¸ ´Þ·¯¸¦ ¹ú¾îµéÀÌ´Â ÇìÁöÆÝµå ¸Å´ÏÀúµéÀÌ ±×Àú 15% ¼Òµæ¼¼¸¸ ³½´Ù´Â °ÍÀº ¾ð¾î µµ´ÜÀÎ °ÅÁÒ. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ´Ù¸¥¸éµµ µé¿©´Ù º¾½Ã´Ù. ¹Ì±¹ÀÇ ±¹¹æºñ ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÆæÅ¸°ïÀº Àü ¼¼°è ±¹¹æ ¿¹»êÀÇ Àý¹ÝÀ» ¾²°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹ÀÌ 2010³â¿¡ 1.4 Ʋ¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯¶ó´Â ¿¹»ê ÀûÀÚ¸¦ º¸°í ÀÖ´Â ÆÇ±¹¿¡ ±¹¹æºñ¸¦ 6% Áõ°¡½ÃŲ´Ù´Â °ÍÀº ¹Ï±â Èûµç ÀÏÀÔ´Ï´Ù.

JAY: Almost $1 trillion a year.

Á¦ÀÌ: ³â°£ ±¹¹æºñ°¡ °ÅÀÇ 1 Æ®¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯³ª µÇÁÒ.

MARGOLIS: That's correct. And pursuing the war in Afghanistan, and now talking about attacking Iran and Somalia and Yemen and God knows what. So I said America's become addicted to debt and to war.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ¸Â½À´Ï´Ù. ±×¸®°í ¾ÆÇÁ°£ ÀüÀï¿¡´Ù°¡ ÀÌÁ¨ À̶õ°ú ¼Ò¸»¸®, ¿¹¸à±îÁö °ø°ÝÇҰŶó´Â ¸»ÀÌ ÀÖÀ¸´Ï. ¶Ç ´©±¸¸¦ °ø°ÝÇҰǰ¡¿ä? Çϳª´Ô¸¸ ¾Ë°Ì´Ï´Ù. ±×·¡¼­ Á¦¸»ÀÌ ¹Ì±¹Àº ºú°ú ÀüÀï¿¡ Áßµ¶µÇ¾î ÀÖ´Ù´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù.

JAY: So why not then target the Pentagon budget, taxing the wealthy? But generally when austerity programs are talked about—and what they're talking about in the US is going after Social Security. They want to go after people's retirement funds.

Á¦ÀÌ: ±×·¸´Ù¸é ¿Ö ÆæÅ¸°ïÀÇ ¿¹»êÀ» °Ü³ÉÇÏÁö ¾Ê´Â °ÍÀԴϱî? ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥À» ¸»ÇÒ¶§ ±×µéÀº »çȸº¸À忬±ÝÀ» µµ¸¶¿¡ ¿Ã¸®°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀº ±¹¹ÎµéÀÇ ÀºÅ𿬱ݿ¡ ¼ÕÀ» ´ë·Á°í ÇØ¿ä.

MARGOLIS: Well, unfortunately, you know, we should do what Prime Minister Cameron is doing so well in England, and that is cutting across the board. Everybody's going to have to pay. Do you know the United States is waging two wars now that are not being paid for by taxes? They're being put on the national credit card; they're being put on the national debt. If Americans were taxed to pay for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, like, $1,000 a month or whatever they cost, I could bet you those wars would end pretty quickly and Congress would cut the money off. But we have this make-believe system. And the Pentagon's budget should be cut by 50 percent. That's what I said. There's no need for it. But then you're up against the military-industrial-financial complex.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ºÒÇàÈ÷µµ ±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù. ¿ì¸®´Â ¿µ±¹¿¡¼­ ij¸Ó·ô ¼ö»óÀÌ Àß ÇØ³»°í ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀ» ¾Ë¾Æ¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ÀüüÀûÀ¸·Î ´Ù ±ï¾Æ³»¸° °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±¹¹Î ¸ðµÎ°¡ Âü¿©ÇØ¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹Àº Áö±Ý ¼¼±ÝÀ¸·Î ÁöºÒµÇÁö ¾Ê´Â µÎ°³ÀÇ ÀüÀïÀ» Çϰí ÀÖ´Â °Í ¾Æ½ÃÁÒ? Á¤ºÎÀÇ ½Å¿ëÄ«µå·Î ÁöÅÊÇϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ÀüÀïºñ¿ëÀÌ ±¹°¡ÀÇ ºúÀÌ µÇ°í ÀÖ¾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ¸¸¾à¿¡ ¹Ì±¹ ±¹¹ÎµéÀÌ À̶óÅ©¿Í ¾ÆÇÁ°£ ÀüÀï ±ººñ¸¦ ÇÑ´Þ¿¡ 1õ´Þ·¯¾¿ ºÎ´ãÇØ¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í »ý°¢ÇØ º¸¼¼¿ä. ÀüÀïÀº ±Ý»õ Á¾½ÄµÇ°í ±¹È¸´Â µ·ÁÙÀ» ²÷¾î¹ö¸± °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¿ì¸° ²ÞÀÇ ³ª¶ó¿Í °°Àº ½Ã½ºÅÛÀ» °¡Áö°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ±×¸®°í ÆæÅ¸°ï ¿¹»êÀÌ 50% »è°¨µÇ¾î¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ±× ÀÌ»ó Çʿ䰡 ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¿ì¸° ±º¼ö-±ÝÀ¶»ê¾÷ ±â°ü°ú ¸Â¼­¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù.

JAY: Well, isn't that the point here is that it's easier to go after less state employees, less teachers, less policeman, less food stamps, it's so much easier to go after that than take on the powers that be, where the money really is?

Á¦ÀÌ: ±× Á¡ÀÌ ÇÖÀ̽´ÀÎ °Å ¾Æ´Õ´Ï±î? ÈûÀÖ´Â ÀÚµéÀ» »ó´ëÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÌ Èûµå´Ï±ñ ¿¬¾àÇÑ °ø¹«¿ø, ¼±»ý´Ô, °æÂû°ü, ±ØºóÀÚµéÀ» °ø°ÝÇÏ´Â °Í ¾Æ´Ï°Ú½À´Ï±î?

MARGOLIS: Everybody has to be taken on.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ¸ðµç »ç¶÷µé¿¡°Ô Àû¿ëµÇ¾î¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù.

JAY: But if you take on ordinary people's spending power, that's part of what got us into this economic crisis in the first place. There wasn't enough real purchasing power, and people were using their credit cards.

Á¦ÀÌ: ÇÏÁö¸¸ º¸Åë »ç¶÷µéÀÇ ±¸¸Å·ÂÀ» ¾àÈ­½ÃŰ´Â °ÍÀÌ Áö±Ý°ú °°Àº °æÁ¦»çŸ¦ ¾ß±â½ÃŲ °ÍÀÌ ¾Æ´Ñ°¡¿ä? ½ÇÁúÀûÀÎ ±¸¸Å ÆÄ¿ö°¡ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó ½Å¿ëÄ«µå¸¦ ÀÌ¿ëÇÑ Çã»óÀÇ ±¸¸Å·ÂÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù.

MARGOLIS: And people got scared. But public sector unions are another major villain, and they need to have their cushy lifestyles cut back. And this is exactly what's happening in Europe right now. Europeans have decided, who've been through inflation of the 1930s, they are making massive cutbacks. Even though everybody's screaming and yelling about it, they know. They got a big scare with the drop in the euro and the recent crisis there. But Obama keeps pouring on more of what caused the crisis, which is debt.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ±×¸®°í »ç¶÷µéÀº µÎ·Á¿öÇϱ⠽ÃÀÛÇßÁÒ. ÇÏÁö¸¸ °ø°ø Á¶Çյ鵵 ÀûÀÏ ¼ö ¹Û¿¡ ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀÇ ¾¸¾¸À̵µ ÁÙ¾îµé¾î¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯ÇÑ Çö»óÀÌ Áö±Ý À¯·´¿¡¼­ ÀϾ°í ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. 1930³â´ëÀÇ °íµµÀÇ ÀÎÇ÷¹À̼ÇÀ» °æÇèÇß´ø À¯·ÎÇǾðµéÀº ÀÌÁ¦ ÁöÃâÀ» ´ë°Å ÁÙÀ̰í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³Êµµ³ªµµ ¼Ò¸®Áö¸£°í ³­¸®¸¦ Ãĵµ ±×µéÀº Àß ¾Ð´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀº ÃÖ±Ù¿¡ À¯·Î°¡ Æø¶ôÇÑ °Í¿¡ ´ëÇÑ µÎ·Á¿òÀ» °¡Áö°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¿À¹Ù¸¶´Â ÀÌ °æÁ¦»çÅÂÀÇ ÁÖ ¿äÀÎÀÎ ºúÀ» °è¼Ó ´Ã¸®°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.

JAY: But what do you think of Bob Blair's proposal, which is a voluntary—or if not, compulsory—asset tax, like a one-time tax on people that have made, you know, ridiculously large gains over the last decade or more, and pay down most of the debt? Simply tax the rich. Not just income: go after some of the assets, so you're picking up some of the money that was made over the last decade.

Á¦ÀÌ: ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¹ä ºí·¹¾îÀÇ Á¦¾È¿¡ ´ëÇØ¼­ ¾î¶»°Ô »ý°¢ÇϽʴϱî? Àǹ«°¡ ¾Æ´Ñ ÀÚ¹ßÀû ÀÚ»ê ¼¼±Ý ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. Áö³­ 10³âÀÌ ³Ñ´Â µ¿¾È ±×µé¿¡°Ô ¾È°Ü ÁØ ±× ¾öû³­ Åõ±â ÀÌÀÍ¿¡ ´ëÇÑ ÇѹøÀÇ (ÀÓ½Ã) ¼¼±ÝÀ» ¡¼öÇØ¼­ ºúÀ» °±À¸¸é ¾î¶»°Ú½À´Ï±î? °£´ÜÈ÷ ¸»Çؼ­, ºÎÀÚ¼¼ÁÒ. ¼Òµæ¸¸ÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó Àڻ꼼ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×µé¿¡°Ô µ·À» ¹ú°Ô ÇØ ÁØ ±Ù¿ø¿¡ Çѹø ¼ÕÀ» ´ë´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù.

MARGOLIS: Paul, there's no such thing as a temporary tax. Once it's put in, it usually stays forever—or longer. Secondly, the rich pay most of the taxes. People who make less than $100,000 a year pay only a fractional amount of taxes. The fat cats are the fat payers, too. So I agree, Wall Street should be taxed double taxes on financial transactions. But try getting that through Congress.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: Æú, ÀÌ ¼¼»ó¿£ Àӽà ¼¼±ÝÀ̶ó´Â °ÍÀº ¾ø¾î¿ä. Çѹø ¸Å°ÜÁö¸é ´ëü·Î ¿µ¿øÇϰųª Àå±âÀûÀÎ °ÍÀÌ µÇÁÒ.  µÑ°·Î, ¼¼±ÝÀº ºÎÀÚµéÀÌ ´ëºÎºÐ ºÎ´ãÇϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³â°£ 1½Ê¸¸´Þ·¯ ¹Ì¸¸À» ¹ö´Â »ç¶÷µéÀº ¾ÆÁÖ ÀÛÀº ¼¼À²À» Àû¿ë¹Þ°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. »ìÂð °í¾çÀ̵éÀÌ µÎµÏÈ÷ ¼¼±ÝÀ» ³»°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³ªµµ µ¿ÀÇÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ¿ù½º¸´ »ç¶÷µéÀº ÅõÀڼҵ濡 ´ëÇØ¼­ ÀÌÁß°ú¼¼¸¦ ³»¾ß°ÚÁö¿ä. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ±¹È¸¿¡¼­ ±×°ÍÀ» Åë°ú½ÃÄÑ¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í »ý°¢ÇØ º¸¼¼¿ä. 

JAY: Yeah, I mean, that's the problem. And Warren Buffett says himself that he pays less tax many years than many people making in that $80,000-$100,000 area.

Á¦ÀÌ: ±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù. ±×°Ô ¹®Á¦ÀΰÅÁÒ. ¿ö·± ¹öÆêÀÌ ¸»ÇÑÀûµµ ÀÖ¾úÁÒ. ÀÚ±â´Â 8¸¸ºÒ¿¡¼­ 1½Ê¸¸´Þ·¯ÀÇ ¼ÒµæÃþº¸´Ù ¼¼±ÝÀ» ³½ ÀûÀÌ ¼ö³â°£ ÀÖ¾ú´Ù°í.

MARGOLIS: That's quite right. So you need a warrior. There's talk of a financial dictator who's going to come in and lay down the law. But all Obama has to do, as I've been writing in my column, is to follow the lead of Prime Minister Cameron in Britain. And, you know, when Cameron was here in Washington, I was so impressed by him. He flew back to London commercially; he bought a business-class seat on British Airways and flew back. Yet Mrs. Obama is overseas with an entourage of 30 people, I am told. Our politicians are flying around in private jets. This is not acceptable.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ¸Â¾Æ¿ä. ±×·¡¼­ ¿ì¸®¿¡°Õ Åõ»ç°¡ ÇÊ¿äÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ±ÝÀ¶°è¸¦ Áö¹èÇÒ µ¶ÀçÀÚ°¡ ³ªÅ¸³¯ °ÍÀ̶ó´Â ¸»ÀÌ µ¹°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¿À¹Ù¸¶°¡ Áö±Ý ÇØ¾ßÇÒ °ÍÀº ij¸Ó·ô ¼ö»óÀÇ µÚ¸¦ µû¶ó¾ß ÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ij¸Ó·ôÀÌ À̰÷ ¿ö½ÌÅÏ¿¡ ¿ÔÀ» ¶§ ºÃ´Âµ¥ ¾ÆÁÖ Àλó ±í´õ±º¿ä. ±×´Â »ó¾÷¿ë ºñÇà±â¸¦ Ÿ°í ·±´øÀ¸·Î µ¹¾Æ°¬½À´Ï´Ù. ºê¸®Æ¼½¬ Ç×°øÀÇ ºñÁö´Ï½º ¼®À» »ç¼­ Ÿ°í µ¹¾Æ°¬¾î¿ä. ±×·±µ¥ ¹Ì½© ¿À¹Ù¸¶´Â 30¸íÀÇ ÀÏÇàÀ» ²ø°í ÇØ¿Ü·Î ³ª°¬ÁÒ? ¿ì¸®³ª¶ó Á¤Ä¡ÀεéÀº ÇÁ¶óÀ̺ø Á¦Æ®±â¸¦ Ÿ°í ´Ù³à¿ä. ¹Þ¾ÆµéÀÏ ¼ö ¾ø´Â ÀÏÀÌÁÒ.

JAY: But Cameron's cuts are leading to this minutia. We ran a story yesterday people can watch, from Channel 4, on what's happening in Nottingham—you know, the cutting of teachers, the cutting of daycare centers. I mean, it's stuff that people desperately need, but he's not going after any serious taxing of wealthy Brits.

Á¦ÀÌ: ÇÏÁö¸¸ ij¸Ó·ôÀÇ ÁöÃâ»è°¨ Á¤Ã¥Àº »ç¼ÒÇÑ µ¥¸¦ °Ü³ÉÇϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¿ì¸° ¾îÁ¦ ä³Î 4¸¦ ÅëÇØ ¹æ¿µÇߴµ¥ ¿µ±¹ÀÇ ³ªÆÃÇÜÀÇ ½ºÅ丮¿´½À´Ï´Ù. ¼±»ýµé°ú Ź¾Æ¼Ò¸¦ Â¥¸£´Â Á¤Ã¥ÀÌÁÒ. ±×·± °ÍµéÀº Áö±Ý ±¹¹ÎµéÀº Àý½ÇÈ÷ ÇÊ¿ä·Î ÇÏ´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù. ¹Ý¸é¿¡ ±×´Â ¿µ±¹ÀÇ ºÎÀÚµéÀ» °Ü³ÉÇÏÁö ¾Ê°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä.

MARGOLIS: Paul, when I try and cut budgets in companies, everybody has a wonderful reason to justify holding on to their budgets. The answer is that it must be an across-the-board budget cut. The country has grown much too fat during the years of debt-fueled growth, and it now has to go on a crash diet.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: Æú, ³»°¡ ȸ»çÀÇ ¿¹»êÀ» ±ï¾Æ¾ß ÇÒ ¶§ µ¿Á¶ÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â ÀÌÀ¯¸¦ Á¦°øÇØ Áà¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ÇØ´äÀº ÀüüÀûÀÎ ÄÆÀÌ¿¹¿ä. ¹Ì±¹Àº ºúÀ¸·Î ¼ºÀåÇØ ¿À¸é¼­ ³Ê¹« ºñ´ëÇØ Á³½À´Ï´Ù. ÀÌÁ¨ ±Þ¼ÓÀÇ ´ÙÀÌ¾îÆ®·Î µé¾î°¡¾ß ÇØ¿ä.

JAY: Well, I don't know about everybody. There's a lot of people working two jobs just to pay their rent and eat. I'm not sure how fat they're getting. And they're the ones going to be losing the daycare center.

Á¦ÀÌ: ¸ðµç »ç¶÷ÀÌ ±×·¡¾ß ÇÑ´Ù´Â °ÍÀº Àß ¸ð¸£°Ú³×¿ä. ¿ù¼¼³»°í ½Äºñ¸¸À» ¹ö´Âµ¥µµ ÅõÀâÀ» ¶Ù¾î¾ß ÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¸¹Àºµ¥ ±×µéÀÌ ¾î¶»°Ô ºñ´ëÇØ Á³´Ù´Â °ÍÀÎÁö. Ź¾Æ¼Ò¸¦ ÀÒ¾î¾ß ÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀº ±×µéÀ̰ŵç¿ä.

MARGOLIS: Yeah, but they don't pay the taxes.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ÇÏÁö¸¸ ±×µéÀº ¼¼±ÝÀ» ³»Áö ¾Ê´Â »ç¶÷µéÀÌÀݾƿä.

JAY: I understand. But by cutting their daycare centers is—may reduce a little bit of state expenditure, but they're also not the people that made it and helped contribute to the finance crisis, which is really—the biggest piece of this most recent debt is all the stimulus money that had to be shoved into the economy because so much real purchasing power had been sucked out of a period of 10 to 15 years, with higher productivity and stable or even lower wages. So all that extra wealth went into, we all know, the top 2, 3 percentile and gets stuck there 'cause it doesn't circulate. But this is what I don't understand is you hit austerity measures, you're actually going to have less purchasing power in the economy. So you're going to have, like, this double whammy of less purchasing power.

Á¦ÀÌ: ÀÌÇØÇÕ´Ï´Ù¸¶´Â. Ź¾Æ¼Ò¸¦ ÁÙÀÌ´Â °ÍÀº Á¤ºÎ ¿¹»ê¿¡ ¾ÆÁÖ ÀÛ°Ô³ª¸¶ µµ¿òÀº ÁÖ°ÚÁö¿ä. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ±×µéÀº ±ÝÀ¶»çŸ¦ ÀÏÀ¸Å°´Âµ¥ ÀüÇô ¹«°üÇß´ø »ç¶÷µéÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÃÖ±Ù¿¡ Á¤ºÎ°¡ Áø ºúÀÇ ´ëºÎºÐÀÌ °æ±â ºÎ¾çÀÚ±Ý ¾Æ´Ï¾ú³ª¿ä? Áö³­ 10³â¿¡¼­ 15³â°£ Àӱݵ¿°áÀ» ÅëÇÑ »ý»ê´É·üÇâ»ó°ú ÇÔ²² Áø½ÇµÈ ±¸¸Å´É·ÂÀÌ °æÁ¦¿¡¼­ ºüÁ® ³ª°¡ ¹ö·È±â ¶§¹®¿¡ »ý±ä ħü°æÁ¦¸¦ »ì¸®±â À§ÇÑ ºÎ¾çÀÚ±ÝÀ̾úÁÒ. ±×°ÍÀ¸·Î ºÎÅÍ »ý±ä ¸ðµç ºÎÀÇ ÃàÀûÀº »óÀ§ 2%, 3%·Î Áý¾àµÇ¾î ºüÁ® ³ª¿ÀÁö ¾ÊÀº °Í ¾Æ´Õ´Ï±î. °Å±â´Ù°¡ ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥À» ½Ç½ÃÇÏ¸é °æÁ¦ Àü¹ÝÀÇ ±¸¸Å´É·ÂÀ» Ãà¼Ò½ÃŰ´Â °á°ú¸¦ °¡Á®¿À°Ô µÇ´Âµ¥...³ª´Â ±×°ÍÀ» ÀÌÇØÇÒ ¼ö ¾ø´Ù´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù. °æÁ¦¿¡ ¿øÅõÆÝÄ¡¸¦ ³¯¸®´Â °Å ¾Æ´Õ´Ï±î?

MARGOLIS: That's the risk. That's the risk.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ±×°Ô ·ò½ºÅ© ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×°Ô ·ò½ºÅ©¿¹¿ä.

JAY: It really makes no sense, does it?

Á¦ÀÌ: ¾ÕµÚ°¡ ¾È¸ÂÁÒ?

MARGOLIS: We'll see what happens on the continent in Europe and in Britain, because they're doing this in spite of warnings that you can't give up debt, debt is necessary for human existence, and cut back. And we'll see how much the economies really suffer from that. My personal view as a businessman for many years is that what we need is dramatic and drastic cuts, and people will suffer for a short period, but we'll restore and revitalize our economy so we can go ahead to more future growth. If we don't do it, we're going to be saddled with this debt monstrosity from now till kingdom come, and we're never going to pull ourselves out of this swamp.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ¿µ±¹°ú À¯·´¿¡ ¾î¶² Çö»óÀÌ ÀϾ°Ô µÉÁö Çѹø ÁöÄѺ¾½Ã´Ù. ºúÀº Àΰ£»çȸ¿¡ ÇÊ¿ä¾ÇÀ̶ó°íµé Çϴµ¥ ºúÀ» ÁÙÀÏ·Á°í Çϰí ÀÖÀݾƿä? °æÁ¦¿¡ ¾ó¸¶³ª Ÿ°ÝÀ» ÁÖ°Ô µÉ °ÍÀÎÁö º¾½Ã´Ù. ¼ö³â°£ »ç¾÷°¡ÀÎ ³»°¡ º¸´Â °ßÇØ·Î´Â ±äÃàÀº ´ë´ãÇØ¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯¸é »ç¶÷µéÀº ª°Ô °í»ýÇϰí ȸ»ýÇÏ°Ô µÉ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ¸¸¾à ±×·¸Áö ¾Ê´Â´Ù¸é ¿ì¸®´Â ¿µ¿øÈ÷ ºú´õ¹Ì¿¡ ´­·Á »ì°Ô µË´Ï´Ù.

JAY: Alright. Well, I'm with you on that, as long as it's—from my point of view, let's start with the wealthy, let's have some big cuts there, and then let's look at daycare centers.

Á¦ÀÌ: µ¿ÀÇÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ´Ù¸¸ ±× ³ë·ÂÀÌ À§¿¡¼­ºÎÅÍ ³»·Á ¿À´Â °ÍÀ̶ó¸é ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×°÷¿¡¼­ ºÎÅÍ Å©°Ô ÁÙ¿© º¾½Ã´Ù. ±× ´ÙÀ½¿¡ Ź¾Æ¼Ò¸¦ °Ü³ÉÇØ º¸ÁÒ.

MARGOLIS: I put your name on the list, Paul.

¸¶°ñ¸®½º: Æú, ´ç½ÅÀÇ À̸§ºÎÅÍ ¿Ã·Á³õµµ·Ï ÇϰڽÀ´Ï´Ù.

JAY: I wish. Thanks for joining us, Eric. And thank you for joining us on The Real News Network. And if you would like me to be in a position I can get on Eric's list, click the Donate button. But it would take a heck of a lot of Donate button pushes before I'll be on that list.

Á¦ÀÌ: ±×·¯¸é ¾ó¸¶³ª ÁÁ°Ú¾î¿ä? ÀÎÅͺ信 ÀÀÇØ Áּż­ °¨»çÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ½ÃûÀÚ ¿©·¯ºÐ, ¿¡·óÀÇ ¸®½ºÆ®¿¡ ³» À̸§ÀÌ ¿Ã¶ó°¡´Â °ÍÀ» ¿øÇÏ½Å´Ù¸é ±âºÎ±Ý ¹öưÀ» ´­·¯ ÁÖ½ÊÀÌ¿ä. ±× ¸®½ºÆ¼¿¡ ³» À̸§ÀÌ ¿Ã¶ó°¥·Á¸é ±× ±âºÎ±Ý ¹öưÀÌ ¾öû ´­·¯Á®¾ß ÇÒ °Í °°½À´Ï´Ù.

End of Transcript

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Bio

Eric S. Margolis is an award-winning, internationally syndicated foreign affairs columnist. His articles have appeared in the New York Times, the International Herald Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, Chicago Times, Times of London, the Gulf Times, the Khaleej Times, Dawn, Daily News Pakistan, Sun Malaysia, Mainichi Tokyo, U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, Globe and Mail and the American Conservative. His internet column www.ericmargolis.com reaches global readers on a daily basis. He is the author of two best selling books, War at the Top of the World: The Struggle for Afghanistan And Asia, and nominated for the Governor General's prestigious award for American Raj: Resolving The Conflict Between The West And The Muslim World. As a war correspondent Margolis has covered conflicts in Angola, Namibia, South Africa, Mozambique, Lebanon, Turkist Kurdistan, Peru, Afghanistan, Kashmir, India, Pakistan, El Salvador and Nicaragua. He was among the first journalist to ever interview Libya¡¯s Muammar Khadaffi and was the first to be allowed access to KGB headquarters in Lubyanka.

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