|
Margolis argues in support of G20 austerity
policy
(G-20ÀÇ ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥ ¹æ¹ý·Ð¿¡ ´ëÇÑ ÁöÁö vs. ¹Ý´ë ÀÎÅͺä)
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August 9, 2010
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Eric Margolis debates Paul Jay about the
ways to reduce government debt
The Real News NetworkÀÇ Æú Á¦ÀÌ vs. ¿¡¸¯ ¸¶°ñ¸®½º - Á¤ºÎ
ºÎä °¨¼Ò ¹æ¹ý·Ð ³íÀï
PAUL
JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to
The Real News Network. I'm Paul
Jay. And joining us from our studio in Washington is Eric Margolis. He's
the author of American Raj: Resolving the Conflict between the West
and the Muslim World. And he writes at EricMargolis.com and in many
newspapers around the world. Thanks for joining us, Eric.
The Real News Network (TRNN)ÀÇ ÆíÁýÀÎ, Æú Á¦ÀÌ:
TRNN¿¡ ¿À½Å °ÍÀ» ȯ¿µÇÕ´Ï´Ù. Àú´Â Æú Á¦ÀÌ ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ¿À´ÃÀº ÀúÈñ ¿ö½ÌÅÏ ½ºÆ©µð¿À·Î ¿¡·ó ¸¶°ñ¸®½º¾¾¸¦ ¸ð¼Ì½À´Ï´Ù. ¸¶°ñ¸®½º¾¾´Â
"¾î¸Þ·òÄ ·ÖÁö: ¼±¸¿Í ¸Ó½½¸² ¼¼°èÀÇ ºÐÀï ÇØ°á"ÀÇ ÀúÀÚÀ̽ʴϴÙ. ±×¸®°í ±×´Â EricMagolis.comÀ» ºñ·ÔÇØ ¼¼°è °¢±¹
´Ù¼öÀÇ ½Å¹®¿¡ Ä®·³À» ¾²°í °è½Ê´Ï´Ù. ¿ÍÁּż °¨»çÇÕ´Ï´Ù, ¿¡·ó¾¾.
ERIC MARGOLIS, JOURNALIST: My pleasure.
¿¡·ó ¸¶°ñ¸®½º, Àú³Î¸®½ºÆ®: ±â»Þ´Ï´Ù.
JAY: One of the things you've been writing
recently is in praise of the austerity measures in the UK. You were
supportive of the G-20 call for halving the deficit by 2013. You've been
saying America desperately needs austerity measures, even though they'll
be unpopular. Why do you think so?
Á¦ÀÌ: ÃÖ±Ù¿¡ ¾²½Å ±Ûµé Áß¿¡ ¿µ±¹ÀÇ ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥¿¡ ´ëÇØ¼ μÛÀ» º¸³»´Â ±ÛÀ»
¾²¼Ì½À´Ï´Ù. ¶ÇÇÑ 2013³â±îÁö ¿¹»êÀûÀÚ¸¦ Àý¹ÝÀ¸·Î ÁÙÀÌÀÚ´Â G-20 ¼±¾ð¹®µµ ÁöÁöÇϼ̱¸¿ä. ±¹¹Îµé·Î ºÎÅÍ È¯¿µÀ» ¹ÞÁö ¸øÇÏ´õ¶óµµ
¹Ì±¹µµ ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥ÀÌ °£ÀýÈ÷ ÇÊ¿äÇÏ´Ù°í ÇØ ¿À¼ÌÁÒ. ¿Ö ±×·¸°Ô »ý°¢ÇϽʴϱî?
MARGOLIS: Debt is what caused the financial
crisis of 2007-2008. The United States is drowning in debt. Its whole
financial system is being debauched and it could topple any day now. The
United States can't pay its bills. It runs on borrowed money. In fact,
the United States, as I've been writing, is addicted to debt and to war.
And the red Chinese now own $1 trillion of American debt. The only way
the American government can keep working is by selling IOUs to the
Chinese. This is an untenable and unacceptable situation.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ºúÀÌ 2007-2008 ±ÝÀ¶»çŸ¦ ºú¾î³Â½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹Àº Áö±Ý ºú¿¡
Àá±â°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±¸Á¶ÀÚü°¡ Ÿ¶ôÇ߱⠶§¹®¿¡ ¾ðÁ¦ ³Ñ¾î°¥Áö ¸ð¸¨´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹Àº ÁöºÒ´É·ÂÀÌ ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ±×µ¿¾È ³» ±Û¿¡ ½á ¿ÔµíÀÌ
¹Ì±¹Àº ºú°ú ÀüÀï¿¡ Áßµ¶µÇ¾î ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×¸®°í Áß±¹Àº ¹Ì±¹ ±¹Ã¤¸¦ 1 Æ®¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯¾îÄ¡¸¦ ¼ÒÀ¯Çϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹ÀÌ Áß±¹°úÀÇ ²öÀ»
À¯ÁöÇϱâ À§Çؼ´Â Áß±¹¿¡ ä±ÇÀ» °è¼Ó ÆÄ´Â °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×°ÍÀº ÁöÁöÇÒ ¼öµµ ¹Þ¾ÆµéÀÏ ¼öµµ ¾ø´Â »óȲÀÎ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
JAY: Well, you'd think it'd be the people
loaning the money would be more worried. I mean, if you're in that
situation, it's the lenders that are more at risk than the borrower.
Á¦ÀÌ: Èì...µ·Àº ºô·ÁÁØ »ç¶÷ÀÌ ´õ °ÆÁ¤ÇØ¾ß ÇÏ´Â °Í ¾Æ´Ñ°¡¿ä? ´Ù½Ã ¸»Çؼ,
ÁÖ·Î À§ÇèÀº 乫ÀÚº¸´Ù ä±ÇÀÚ¿¡°Ô ÀÖ´Â °Í ¾Æ´Ï³Ä´Â ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
MARGOLIS: Well, [inaudible] the Chinese are
not doing this for commercial reasons—well, they are, to promote trade
with the US, but they know they have tremendous leverage over the
American government. And the problem is that it shows the ascendancy of
Wall Street now has become the center of power in the United States. For
example, the main supporter of Obama when he was running was Goldman
Sachs.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: Áß±¹Àº »ó¾÷ÀûÀÎ ¸ñÀû¿¡¼ ±×·¯°í ÀÖ´Â °Ô ¾Æ´Õ´Ï´Ù - ¹°·Ð ¹Ì±¹°úÀÇ
¹«¿ªÀ» µµ¸ðÇϱâ À§ÇÑ °ÍÀ̱⵵ ÇÏÁÒ. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ±×µéÀº ¹Ì±¹Á¤ºÎ¿¡ ¸·´ëÇÑ ·¹¹ö¸®Áö¸¦ °¡Áö°í ÀÖ´Ù´Â »ç½Çµµ Àß ¾Ë°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¹®Á¦´Â
¿ù½ºÆ®¸´ÀÌ ¹Ì±¹ ±Ç·ÂÀÇ Á߽ɿ¡ ³õ¿© ÀÖ´Ù´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù. ÇÑ ¿¹·Î, ¿À¹Ù¸¶ Èĺ¸ÀÇ ´ëÇ¥ÀûÀÎ ÈÄ¿øÀÚ°¡ °ñµå¸¸ ½Ï½º¿´¾úÁÒ.
JAY: But the crisis of 2008 wasn't state
debt. It was Wall Street speculation and collapse.
Á¦ÀÌ: ÇÏÁö¸¸ 2008³â »çÅ´ Á¤ºÎÀÇ ºúÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó
¿ù½ºÆ®¸´ÀÇ Åõ±â¿Í ºØ±«°¡ ¾Æ´Ï¾ú³ª¿ä?
MARGOLIS: Well, yes. It was debt, I said. It
was debt. It's all kinds of debt.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ºúÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù. Á¦°¡ ºúÀ̶ó°í ÇßÁÒ? ¿Â°®
Á¾·ùÀÇ ºÎä¿´½À´Ï´Ù.
JAY: Private, not public. I mean, it became
public because the public was asked and agreed to—through the
administration, to funnel trillions of dollars back into Wall Street.
Á¦ÀÌ: Á¤ºÎÀÇ ºúÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó »çÀû (ÇÁ¶óÀ̺ø) ÀÎ
ºú. ±×¸®°ï Á¤ºÎÀÇ ºúÀÌ µÇ¾úÁÒ - ¼ö Æ®¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯¸¦ ¿ù½ºÆ®¸´À¸·Î »© µ¹¸± ¼ö ÀÖµµ·Ï ÇàÁ¤ºÎ¿¡¼ ±¹¹Îµé¿¡°Ô ¿ä±¸Çß°í µ¿ÀǵÈ
°ÍÀ̶ó´Â ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
MARGOLIS: That's quite true. But the US
government cannot raise enough in taxes now, so it has to finance its
current and future operations through ever larger debt demands, which
are undermining the commercial markets and jeopardizing it. I've just
come from Wall Street. I've been talking to leading money managers. I
manage money myself. And I can tell you that people are really very,
very nervous. They say the system is very fragile, and one event could
set the thing into crisis again or could topple the banks and make
liquidity vanish. So we are drowning in debt.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ´ç¿¬È÷ ¸Â´Â ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÁö¸¸ Áö±ÝÀº
¹Ì±¹ Á¤ºÎ°¡ ¼¼±ÝÀ» ¿Ã¸± ¼ö ¾ø´Â »óȲÀÔ´Ï´Ù. µû¶ó¼ ÇöÀç¿Í ¹Ì·¡ÀÇ ÀÚ±ÝÀ» µ¿¿øÇϱâ À§Çؼ± ´õ Å« ºúÀ» Á®¾ßÇÏÁÒ. ±×°Ç ½ÃÀåÀ»
Àá½Ä½Ã۰í À§ÇèÀ§¿¡ ¿Ã·Á ³õ´Â ÀÏÀÔ´Ï´Ù. Àú´Â ±Ý¹æ ¿ù½ºÆ®¸´¿¡ ´Ù³à¿Ô½À´Ï´Ù. ´ëÇ¥ÀûÀÎ ÆÝµå¸Å´ÏÀúµé°ú À̾߱⸦ ³ª´³ÁÒ. Á¦ Àڽŵµ
ÆÝµå¸¦ ¿î¿µÇϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¸»¾¸µå¸± ¼ö ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀº »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¸Å¿ì ¸Å¿ì ±äÀåÇϰí ÀÖ´Ù´Â °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀº (°æÁ¦)±¸Á¶°¡ ¸Å¿ì
¿¬¾àÇØ¼ ¹®Á¦ Çϳª¸¸ ÅÍÁ®µµ »çÅÂÁö°æÀ¸·Î ´Ù½Ã ¸»·Áµé ¼ö Àְųª ÀºÇàµéÀÌ ³Ñ¾î °¥ ¼öµµ ÀÖ°í ÀÚ±Ý À¯µ¿ÀÌ °æ»öµÉ ¼öµµ ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
°á±¹ ¿ì¸° ºú¿¡ Àá±â°í ÀÖ´Â °ÅÁÒ.
JAY: Okay. There was a Canadian named Bob
Blair who was—he passed away a couple of years ago, but he took a
company, an oil and gas company in Alberta that became known as Nova
[Chemicals] Corp.—it began around $8 million a year. When he retired, it
was $8 billion a year. And last time we were in this big debt crisis, in
the early '90s and such, he started a campaign which called, let's go
where the money is; the rich should pay down the debt. It's not that
there's not enough wealth in the society, he said. He said it's that the
governments just don't have the guts to tax the rich. So there's plenty
of money in the United States to pay down the debt. I mean, if one were
to tax some of the speculative gains that were made over the last 10, 15
years, the debt could be paid down rather quickly. So I'm asking you, if
it's so important to pay down the debt, then why not go where the money
is?
Á¦ÀÌ: ¿ÀÄÉÀÌ. ¸î³âÀü ÀÛ°íÇÏ°í ¾ø´Â ij³ª´Ù ±¹ÀûÀÇ
¹ä ºí·¡¾î ¶ó´Â »ç¶÷ÀÌ ¾Ë¹úŸ¿¡ ³ë¹Ù(ÈÇÐ)¶ó´Â ¿øÀ¯ °³½º ȸ»ç¸¦ ¼¼¿ü½À´Ï´Ù. ÃʱâÀÇ ¸ÅÃâÀÌ 8¹é¸¸ ´Þ·¯ Á¤µµ ‰ç¾úÁÒ. ±×°¡
ÀºÅðÇßÀ» ´ç½ÃÀÇ ¸ÅÃâÀº 80¾ï´Þ·¯·Î ¼ºÀåÇß½À´Ï´Ù. Áö³ 90³â´ë Ãʹݿ¡ ºÎä»çŰ¡ ¶Ç ÀÖ¾úÀ» ¶§ ±×´Â "µ·ÀÌ ÀÖ´Â °÷¿¡¼ ºÎÅÍ
½ÃÀÛÇÏÀÚ"¶ó°í ÇÏ¸é¼ ºÎÀÚµéÀÌ ºúÀ» °±¾Æ¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í ÁÖÀåÇß½À´Ï´Ù. »çȸ¿¡ µ·ÀÌ ÃæºÐÈ÷ ¾ø´Â °ÍÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó Á¤Ä¡ÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ºÎÀÚµéÀÇ
¼¼±ÝÀ» ¿Ã¸± ¹è¯ÀÌ ¾ø´Ù°í ¸»Çß½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹¿£ ºÎ並 °¨¼Ò½ÃŰ´Â µ¥ ÇÊ¿äÇÑ µ·ÀÌ ¸¹½À´Ï´Ù. Áö³ 10-15³âµ¿¾È ±ÝÀ¶Åõ±â·Î
¾öû³ª°Ô ¹ø µ·¿¡ ´ëÇØ¼¸¸ ¼¼±ÝÀ» ¸Å°Üµµ ºúÀº ±Ý¹æ ÁÙ¾îµé °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¡¼ ¿©Â庸´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù. ºúÀ» °±¾Æ°¡´Â °ÍÀÌ ±×·¸°Ô
Áß¿äÇÏ´Ù¸é ¿Ö Á¤ºÎ´Â µ·ÀÌ ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀ» ¸ÕÀú °ø·«ÇÏÁö ¾Ê´Â °Ì´Ï±î?
MARGOLIS: Well, there are two ways of doing
it. Yes, Americans are not taxed enough. And I'm a taxpayer, an American
taxpayer, and I have—and it hurts me to say it, but it's true,
particularly the rich: the Bush tax cuts were really intolerable. They
were a giveaway to the wealthy and they were not right. I mean, for
hedge fund managers who are making $50 million a year to pay 15 percent
total tax is scandalous. But let's look at the other side of the coin,
and that is: the American defense department, the Pentagon, consumes 50
percent of the world's defense spending—50 percent. It is incredible, at
a time when the American deficit is at $1.4 trillion for this year,
2010, that the Pentagon is increasing defense spending by 6 percent.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: µÎ°¡Áö ¹æ¹ýÀÌ ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¸Â½À´Ï´Ù.
¹Ì±¹ÀεéÀº ¼¼±ÝÀ» Àû°Ô ³»°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³ªµµ ¼¼³³ÀÚÀ̱⠶§¹®¿¡ ³ª¿¡°Ôµµ ºÒÀÌÀÍÀÌ ¿À´Â °ÍÀ̰ÚÁö¸¸, ±×°Ô ¸Â´Â ¾ê±âÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ƯÈ÷
ºÎÀÚµéÀÌ ±×·¸½ººó´Ù. ºÎ½ÃÀÇ ¼¼±Ý»è°¨Àº ÁöÅÊÇϱâ Èûµç °ÍÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ±×ÀÇ Á¤Ã¥µéÀº ºÎÀڵ鿡°Ô ¼±¹°À» ÁÖ´Â °ÝÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ³â°£
5õ¸¸ ´Þ·¯¸¦ ¹ú¾îµéÀÌ´Â ÇìÁöÆÝµå ¸Å´ÏÀúµéÀÌ ±×Àú 15% ¼Òµæ¼¼¸¸ ³½´Ù´Â °ÍÀº ¾ð¾î µµ´ÜÀÎ °ÅÁÒ. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ´Ù¸¥¸éµµ µé¿©´Ù º¾½Ã´Ù.
¹Ì±¹ÀÇ ±¹¹æºñ ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÆæÅ¸°ïÀº Àü ¼¼°è ±¹¹æ ¿¹»êÀÇ Àý¹ÝÀ» ¾²°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹ÀÌ 2010³â¿¡ 1.4 Ʋ¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯¶ó´Â ¿¹»ê
ÀûÀÚ¸¦ º¸°í ÀÖ´Â ÆÇ±¹¿¡ ±¹¹æºñ¸¦ 6% Áõ°¡½ÃŲ´Ù´Â °ÍÀº ¹Ï±â Èûµç ÀÏÀÔ´Ï´Ù.
JAY: Almost $1 trillion a year.
Á¦ÀÌ: ³â°£ ±¹¹æºñ°¡ °ÅÀÇ 1 Æ®¸±¸®¾ð ´Þ·¯³ª
µÇÁÒ.
MARGOLIS: That's correct. And pursuing the
war in Afghanistan, and now talking about attacking Iran and Somalia and
Yemen and God knows what. So I said America's become addicted to debt
and to war.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ¸Â½À´Ï´Ù. ±×¸®°í ¾ÆÇÁ°£ ÀüÀï¿¡´Ù°¡ ÀÌÁ¨
À̶õ°ú ¼Ò¸»¸®, ¿¹¸à±îÁö °ø°ÝÇҰŶó´Â ¸»ÀÌ ÀÖÀ¸´Ï. ¶Ç ´©±¸¸¦ °ø°ÝÇҰǰ¡¿ä? Çϳª´Ô¸¸ ¾Ë°Ì´Ï´Ù. ±×·¡¼ Á¦¸»ÀÌ ¹Ì±¹Àº ºú°ú ÀüÀï¿¡
Áßµ¶µÇ¾î ÀÖ´Ù´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù.
JAY: So why not then target the Pentagon
budget, taxing the wealthy? But generally when austerity programs are
talked about—and what they're talking about in the US is going after
Social Security. They want to go after people's retirement funds.
Á¦ÀÌ: ±×·¸´Ù¸é ¿Ö ÆæÅ¸°ïÀÇ ¿¹»êÀ» °Ü³ÉÇÏÁö ¾Ê´Â
°ÍÀԴϱî? ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥À» ¸»ÇÒ¶§ ±×µéÀº »çȸº¸À忬±ÝÀ» µµ¸¶¿¡ ¿Ã¸®°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀº ±¹¹ÎµéÀÇ ÀºÅ𿬱ݿ¡ ¼ÕÀ» ´ë·Á°í ÇØ¿ä.
MARGOLIS: Well, unfortunately, you know, we
should do what Prime Minister Cameron is doing so well in England, and
that is cutting across the board. Everybody's going to have to pay. Do
you know the United States is waging two wars now that are not being
paid for by taxes? They're being put on the national credit card;
they're being put on the national debt. If Americans were taxed to pay
for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, like, $1,000 a month or whatever
they cost, I could bet you those wars would end pretty quickly and
Congress would cut the money off. But we have this make-believe system.
And the Pentagon's budget should be cut by 50 percent. That's what I
said. There's no need for it. But then you're up against the
military-industrial-financial complex.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ºÒÇàÈ÷µµ ±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù. ¿ì¸®´Â ¿µ±¹¿¡¼
ij¸Ó·ô ¼ö»óÀÌ Àß ÇØ³»°í ÀÖ´Â °ÍÀ» ¾Ë¾Æ¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ÀüüÀûÀ¸·Î ´Ù ±ï¾Æ³»¸° °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±¹¹Î ¸ðµÎ°¡ Âü¿©ÇØ¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ¹Ì±¹Àº Áö±Ý
¼¼±ÝÀ¸·Î ÁöºÒµÇÁö ¾Ê´Â µÎ°³ÀÇ ÀüÀïÀ» Çϰí ÀÖ´Â °Í ¾Æ½ÃÁÒ? Á¤ºÎÀÇ ½Å¿ëÄ«µå·Î ÁöÅÊÇϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ÀüÀïºñ¿ëÀÌ ±¹°¡ÀÇ ºúÀÌ µÇ°í
ÀÖ¾ú½À´Ï´Ù. ¸¸¾à¿¡ ¹Ì±¹ ±¹¹ÎµéÀÌ À̶óÅ©¿Í ¾ÆÇÁ°£ ÀüÀï ±ººñ¸¦ ÇÑ´Þ¿¡ 1õ´Þ·¯¾¿ ºÎ´ãÇØ¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í »ý°¢ÇØ º¸¼¼¿ä. ÀüÀïÀº ±Ý»õ
Á¾½ÄµÇ°í ±¹È¸´Â µ·ÁÙÀ» ²÷¾î¹ö¸± °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¿ì¸° ²ÞÀÇ ³ª¶ó¿Í °°Àº ½Ã½ºÅÛÀ» °¡Áö°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ±×¸®°í ÆæÅ¸°ï ¿¹»êÀÌ 50%
»è°¨µÇ¾î¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ±× ÀÌ»ó Çʿ䰡 ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¿ì¸° ±º¼ö-±ÝÀ¶»ê¾÷ ±â°ü°ú ¸Â¼¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
JAY: Well, isn't that the point here is that
it's easier to go after less state employees, less teachers, less
policeman, less food stamps, it's so much easier to go after that than
take on the powers that be, where the money really is?
Á¦ÀÌ: ±× Á¡ÀÌ ÇÖÀ̽´ÀÎ °Å ¾Æ´Õ´Ï±î? ÈûÀÖ´Â
ÀÚµéÀ» »ó´ëÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÌ Èûµå´Ï±ñ ¿¬¾àÇÑ °ø¹«¿ø, ¼±»ý´Ô, °æÂû°ü, ±ØºóÀÚµéÀ» °ø°ÝÇÏ´Â °Í ¾Æ´Ï°Ú½À´Ï±î?
MARGOLIS: Everybody has to be taken on.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ¸ðµç »ç¶÷µé¿¡°Ô Àû¿ëµÇ¾î¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù.
JAY: But if you take on ordinary people's
spending power, that's part of what got us into this economic crisis in
the first place. There wasn't enough real purchasing power, and people
were using their credit cards.
Á¦ÀÌ: ÇÏÁö¸¸ º¸Åë »ç¶÷µéÀÇ ±¸¸Å·ÂÀ» ¾àȽÃŰ´Â
°ÍÀÌ Áö±Ý°ú °°Àº °æÁ¦»çŸ¦ ¾ß±â½ÃŲ °ÍÀÌ ¾Æ´Ñ°¡¿ä? ½ÇÁúÀûÀÎ ±¸¸Å ÆÄ¿ö°¡ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó ½Å¿ëÄ«µå¸¦ ÀÌ¿ëÇÑ Çã»óÀÇ ±¸¸Å·ÂÀ̾ú½À´Ï´Ù.
MARGOLIS: And people got scared. But public
sector unions are another major villain, and they need to have their
cushy lifestyles cut back. And this is exactly what's happening in
Europe right now. Europeans have decided, who've been through inflation
of the 1930s, they are making massive cutbacks. Even though everybody's
screaming and yelling about it, they know. They got a big scare with the
drop in the euro and the recent crisis there. But Obama keeps pouring on
more of what caused the crisis, which is debt.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ±×¸®°í »ç¶÷µéÀº µÎ·Á¿öÇϱ⠽ÃÀÛÇßÁÒ.
ÇÏÁö¸¸ °ø°ø Á¶Çյ鵵 ÀûÀÏ ¼ö ¹Û¿¡ ¾ø½À´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀÇ ¾¸¾¸À̵µ ÁÙ¾îµé¾î¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯ÇÑ Çö»óÀÌ Áö±Ý À¯·´¿¡¼ ÀϾ°í ÀÖ´Â
°ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. 1930³â´ëÀÇ °íµµÀÇ ÀÎÇ÷¹À̼ÇÀ» °æÇèÇß´ø À¯·ÎÇǾðµéÀº ÀÌÁ¦ ÁöÃâÀ» ´ë°Å ÁÙÀ̰í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³Êµµ³ªµµ ¼Ò¸®Áö¸£°í ³¸®¸¦
Ãĵµ ±×µéÀº Àß ¾Ð´Ï´Ù. ±×µéÀº ÃÖ±Ù¿¡ À¯·Î°¡ Æø¶ôÇÑ °Í¿¡ ´ëÇÑ µÎ·Á¿òÀ» °¡Áö°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¿À¹Ù¸¶´Â ÀÌ °æÁ¦»çÅÂÀÇ ÁÖ
¿äÀÎÀÎ ºúÀ» °è¼Ó ´Ã¸®°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù.
JAY: But what do you think of Bob Blair's
proposal, which is a voluntary—or if not, compulsory—asset tax, like a
one-time tax on people that have made, you know, ridiculously large
gains over the last decade or more, and pay down most of the debt?
Simply tax the rich. Not just income: go after some of the assets, so
you're picking up some of the money that was made over the last decade.
Á¦ÀÌ: ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¹ä ºí·¹¾îÀÇ Á¦¾È¿¡ ´ëÇØ¼ ¾î¶»°Ô
»ý°¢ÇϽʴϱî? Àǹ«°¡ ¾Æ´Ñ ÀÚ¹ßÀû ÀÚ»ê ¼¼±Ý ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. Áö³ 10³âÀÌ ³Ñ´Â µ¿¾È ±×µé¿¡°Ô ¾È°Ü ÁØ ±× ¾öû³ Åõ±â ÀÌÀÍ¿¡ ´ëÇÑ
ÇѹøÀÇ (ÀÓ½Ã) ¼¼±ÝÀ» ¡¼öÇØ¼ ºúÀ» °±À¸¸é ¾î¶»°Ú½À´Ï±î? °£´ÜÈ÷ ¸»Çؼ, ºÎÀÚ¼¼ÁÒ. ¼Òµæ¸¸ÀÌ ¾Æ´Ï¶ó Àڻ꼼ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×µé¿¡°Ô µ·À»
¹ú°Ô ÇØ ÁØ ±Ù¿ø¿¡ Çѹø ¼ÕÀ» ´ë´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù.
MARGOLIS: Paul, there's no such thing as a
temporary tax. Once it's put in, it usually stays forever—or longer.
Secondly, the rich pay most of the taxes. People who make less than
$100,000 a year pay only a fractional amount of taxes. The fat cats are
the fat payers, too. So I agree, Wall Street should be taxed double
taxes on financial transactions. But try getting that through Congress.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: Æú, ÀÌ ¼¼»ó¿£ Àӽà ¼¼±ÝÀ̶ó´Â °ÍÀº
¾ø¾î¿ä. Çѹø ¸Å°ÜÁö¸é ´ëü·Î ¿µ¿øÇϰųª Àå±âÀûÀÎ °ÍÀÌ µÇÁÒ. µÑ°·Î, ¼¼±ÝÀº ºÎÀÚµéÀÌ ´ëºÎºÐ ºÎ´ãÇϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³â°£
1½Ê¸¸´Þ·¯ ¹Ì¸¸À» ¹ö´Â »ç¶÷µéÀº ¾ÆÁÖ ÀÛÀº ¼¼À²À» Àû¿ë¹Þ°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. »ìÂð °í¾çÀ̵éÀÌ µÎµÏÈ÷ ¼¼±ÝÀ» ³»°í ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ³ªµµ
µ¿ÀÇÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ¿ù½º¸´ »ç¶÷µéÀº ÅõÀڼҵ濡 ´ëÇØ¼ ÀÌÁß°ú¼¼¸¦ ³»¾ß°ÚÁö¿ä. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ±¹È¸¿¡¼ ±×°ÍÀ» Åë°ú½ÃÄÑ¾ß ÇÑ´Ù°í »ý°¢ÇØ º¸¼¼¿ä.
JAY: Yeah, I mean, that's the problem. And
Warren Buffett says himself that he pays less tax many years than many
people making in that $80,000-$100,000 area.
Á¦ÀÌ: ±×·¸½À´Ï´Ù. ±×°Ô ¹®Á¦ÀΰÅÁÒ. ¿ö·± ¹öÆêÀÌ
¸»ÇÑÀûµµ ÀÖ¾úÁÒ. ÀÚ±â´Â 8¸¸ºÒ¿¡¼ 1½Ê¸¸´Þ·¯ÀÇ ¼ÒµæÃþº¸´Ù ¼¼±ÝÀ» ³½ ÀûÀÌ ¼ö³â°£ ÀÖ¾ú´Ù°í.
MARGOLIS: That's quite right. So you need a
warrior. There's talk of a financial dictator who's going to come in and
lay down the law. But all Obama has to do, as I've been writing in my
column, is to follow the lead of Prime Minister Cameron in Britain. And,
you know, when Cameron was here in Washington, I was so impressed by
him. He flew back to London commercially; he bought a business-class
seat on British Airways and flew back. Yet Mrs. Obama is overseas with
an entourage of 30 people, I am told. Our politicians are flying around
in private jets. This is not acceptable.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ¸Â¾Æ¿ä. ±×·¡¼ ¿ì¸®¿¡°Õ Åõ»ç°¡
ÇÊ¿äÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ±ÝÀ¶°è¸¦ Áö¹èÇÒ µ¶ÀçÀÚ°¡ ³ªÅ¸³¯ °ÍÀ̶ó´Â ¸»ÀÌ µ¹°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ¿À¹Ù¸¶°¡ Áö±Ý ÇØ¾ßÇÒ °ÍÀº ij¸Ó·ô ¼ö»óÀÇ µÚ¸¦
µû¶ó¾ß ÇÏ´Â °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ij¸Ó·ôÀÌ À̰÷ ¿ö½ÌÅÏ¿¡ ¿ÔÀ» ¶§ ºÃ´Âµ¥ ¾ÆÁÖ Àλó ±í´õ±º¿ä. ±×´Â »ó¾÷¿ë ºñÇà±â¸¦ Ÿ°í ·±´øÀ¸·Î
µ¹¾Æ°¬½À´Ï´Ù. ºê¸®Æ¼½¬ Ç×°øÀÇ ºñÁö´Ï½º ¼®À» »ç¼ Ÿ°í µ¹¾Æ°¬¾î¿ä. ±×·±µ¥ ¹Ì½© ¿À¹Ù¸¶´Â 30¸íÀÇ ÀÏÇàÀ» ²ø°í ÇØ¿Ü·Î ³ª°¬ÁÒ?
¿ì¸®³ª¶ó Á¤Ä¡ÀεéÀº ÇÁ¶óÀ̺ø Á¦Æ®±â¸¦ Ÿ°í ´Ù³à¿ä. ¹Þ¾ÆµéÀÏ ¼ö ¾ø´Â ÀÏÀÌÁÒ.
JAY: But Cameron's cuts are leading to this
minutia. We ran a story yesterday people can watch, from Channel 4, on
what's happening in Nottingham—you know, the cutting of teachers, the
cutting of daycare centers. I mean, it's stuff that people desperately
need, but he's not going after any serious taxing of wealthy Brits.
Á¦ÀÌ: ÇÏÁö¸¸ ij¸Ó·ôÀÇ ÁöÃâ»è°¨ Á¤Ã¥Àº »ç¼ÒÇÑ µ¥¸¦
°Ü³ÉÇϰí ÀÖ½À´Ï´Ù. ¿ì¸° ¾îÁ¦ ä³Î 4¸¦ ÅëÇØ ¹æ¿µÇߴµ¥ ¿µ±¹ÀÇ ³ªÆÃÇÜÀÇ ½ºÅ丮¿´½À´Ï´Ù. ¼±»ýµé°ú Ź¾Æ¼Ò¸¦ Â¥¸£´Â Á¤Ã¥ÀÌÁÒ. ±×·±
°ÍµéÀº Áö±Ý ±¹¹ÎµéÀº Àý½ÇÈ÷ ÇÊ¿ä·Î ÇÏ´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù. ¹Ý¸é¿¡ ±×´Â ¿µ±¹ÀÇ ºÎÀÚµéÀ» °Ü³ÉÇÏÁö ¾Ê°í ÀÖ¾î¿ä.
MARGOLIS: Paul, when I try and cut budgets
in companies, everybody has a wonderful reason to justify holding on to
their budgets. The answer is that it must be an across-the-board budget
cut. The country has grown much too fat during the years of debt-fueled
growth, and it now has to go on a crash diet.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: Æú, ³»°¡ ȸ»çÀÇ ¿¹»êÀ» ±ï¾Æ¾ß ÇÒ ¶§
µ¿Á¶ÇÒ ¼ö ÀÖ´Â ÀÌÀ¯¸¦ Á¦°øÇØ Áà¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ÇØ´äÀº ÀüüÀûÀÎ ÄÆÀÌ¿¹¿ä. ¹Ì±¹Àº ºúÀ¸·Î ¼ºÀåÇØ ¿À¸é¼ ³Ê¹« ºñ´ëÇØ Á³½À´Ï´Ù. ÀÌÁ¨
±Þ¼ÓÀÇ ´ÙÀÌ¾îÆ®·Î µé¾î°¡¾ß ÇØ¿ä.
JAY: Well, I don't know about everybody.
There's a lot of people working two jobs just to pay their rent and eat.
I'm not sure how fat they're getting. And they're the ones going to be
losing the daycare center.
Á¦ÀÌ: ¸ðµç »ç¶÷ÀÌ ±×·¡¾ß ÇÑ´Ù´Â °ÍÀº Àß
¸ð¸£°Ú³×¿ä. ¿ù¼¼³»°í ½Äºñ¸¸À» ¹ö´Âµ¥µµ ÅõÀâÀ» ¶Ù¾î¾ß ÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀÌ ¸¹Àºµ¥ ±×µéÀÌ ¾î¶»°Ô ºñ´ëÇØ Á³´Ù´Â °ÍÀÎÁö. Ź¾Æ¼Ò¸¦ ÀÒ¾î¾ß
ÇÏ´Â »ç¶÷µéÀº ±×µéÀ̰ŵç¿ä.
MARGOLIS: Yeah, but they don't pay the
taxes.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ÇÏÁö¸¸ ±×µéÀº ¼¼±ÝÀ» ³»Áö ¾Ê´Â
»ç¶÷µéÀÌÀݾƿä.
JAY: I understand. But by cutting their
daycare centers is—may reduce a little bit of state expenditure, but
they're also not the people that made it and helped contribute to the
finance crisis, which is really—the biggest piece of this most recent
debt is all the stimulus money that had to be shoved into the economy
because so much real purchasing power had been sucked out of a period of
10 to 15 years, with higher productivity and stable or even lower wages.
So all that extra wealth went into, we all know, the top 2, 3 percentile
and gets stuck there 'cause it doesn't circulate. But this is what I
don't understand is you hit austerity measures, you're actually going to
have less purchasing power in the economy. So you're going to have,
like, this double whammy of less purchasing power.
Á¦ÀÌ: ÀÌÇØÇÕ´Ï´Ù¸¶´Â. Ź¾Æ¼Ò¸¦ ÁÙÀÌ´Â °ÍÀº Á¤ºÎ
¿¹»ê¿¡ ¾ÆÁÖ ÀÛ°Ô³ª¸¶ µµ¿òÀº ÁÖ°ÚÁö¿ä. ÇÏÁö¸¸ ±×µéÀº ±ÝÀ¶»çŸ¦ ÀÏÀ¸Å°´Âµ¥ ÀüÇô ¹«°üÇß´ø »ç¶÷µéÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ÃÖ±Ù¿¡ Á¤ºÎ°¡ Áø ºúÀÇ
´ëºÎºÐÀÌ °æ±â ºÎ¾çÀÚ±Ý ¾Æ´Ï¾ú³ª¿ä? Áö³ 10³â¿¡¼ 15³â°£ Àӱݵ¿°áÀ» ÅëÇÑ »ý»ê´É·üÇâ»ó°ú ÇÔ²² Áø½ÇµÈ ±¸¸Å´É·ÂÀÌ °æÁ¦¿¡¼ ºüÁ®
³ª°¡ ¹ö·È±â ¶§¹®¿¡ »ý±ä ħü°æÁ¦¸¦ »ì¸®±â À§ÇÑ ºÎ¾çÀÚ±ÝÀ̾úÁÒ. ±×°ÍÀ¸·Î ºÎÅÍ »ý±ä ¸ðµç ºÎÀÇ ÃàÀûÀº »óÀ§ 2%, 3%·Î Áý¾àµÇ¾î
ºüÁ® ³ª¿ÀÁö ¾ÊÀº °Í ¾Æ´Õ´Ï±î. °Å±â´Ù°¡ ±äÃàÁ¤Ã¥À» ½Ç½ÃÇÏ¸é °æÁ¦ Àü¹ÝÀÇ ±¸¸Å´É·ÂÀ» Ãà¼Ò½ÃŰ´Â °á°ú¸¦ °¡Á®¿À°Ô µÇ´Âµ¥...³ª´Â
±×°ÍÀ» ÀÌÇØÇÒ ¼ö ¾ø´Ù´Â °Ì´Ï´Ù. °æÁ¦¿¡ ¿øÅõÆÝÄ¡¸¦ ³¯¸®´Â °Å ¾Æ´Õ´Ï±î?
MARGOLIS: That's the risk. That's the risk.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ±×°Ô ·ò½ºÅ© ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×°Ô ·ò½ºÅ©¿¹¿ä.
JAY: It really makes no sense, does it?
Á¦ÀÌ: ¾ÕµÚ°¡ ¾È¸ÂÁÒ?
MARGOLIS: We'll see what happens on the
continent in Europe and in Britain, because they're doing this in spite
of warnings that you can't give up debt, debt is necessary for human
existence, and cut back. And we'll see how much the economies really
suffer from that. My personal view as a businessman for many years is
that what we need is dramatic and drastic cuts, and people will suffer
for a short period, but we'll restore and revitalize our economy so we
can go ahead to more future growth. If we don't do it, we're going to be
saddled with this debt monstrosity from now till kingdom come, and we're
never going to pull ourselves out of this swamp.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: ¿µ±¹°ú À¯·´¿¡ ¾î¶² Çö»óÀÌ ÀϾ°Ô µÉÁö
Çѹø ÁöÄѺ¾½Ã´Ù. ºúÀº Àΰ£»çȸ¿¡ ÇÊ¿ä¾ÇÀ̶ó°íµé Çϴµ¥ ºúÀ» ÁÙÀÏ·Á°í Çϰí ÀÖÀݾƿä? °æÁ¦¿¡ ¾ó¸¶³ª Ÿ°ÝÀ» ÁÖ°Ô µÉ °ÍÀÎÁö
º¾½Ã´Ù. ¼ö³â°£ »ç¾÷°¡ÀÎ ³»°¡ º¸´Â °ßÇØ·Î´Â ±äÃàÀº ´ë´ãÇØ¾ß ÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ±×·¯¸é »ç¶÷µéÀº ª°Ô °í»ýÇϰí ȸ»ýÇÏ°Ô µÉ °ÍÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ¸¸¾à
±×·¸Áö ¾Ê´Â´Ù¸é ¿ì¸®´Â ¿µ¿øÈ÷ ºú´õ¹Ì¿¡ ´·Á »ì°Ô µË´Ï´Ù.
JAY: Alright. Well, I'm with you on that, as
long as it's—from my point of view, let's start with the wealthy, let's
have some big cuts there, and then let's look at daycare centers.
Á¦ÀÌ: µ¿ÀÇÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ´Ù¸¸ ±× ³ë·ÂÀÌ À§¿¡¼ºÎÅÍ ³»·Á
¿À´Â °ÍÀ̶ó¸é ¸»ÀÔ´Ï´Ù. ±×°÷¿¡¼ ºÎÅÍ Å©°Ô ÁÙ¿© º¾½Ã´Ù. ±× ´ÙÀ½¿¡ Ź¾Æ¼Ò¸¦ °Ü³ÉÇØ º¸ÁÒ.
MARGOLIS: I put your name on the list, Paul.
¸¶°ñ¸®½º: Æú, ´ç½ÅÀÇ À̸§ºÎÅÍ ¿Ã·Á³õµµ·Ï
ÇϰڽÀ´Ï´Ù.
JAY: I wish. Thanks for joining us, Eric.
And thank you for joining us on The Real News Network. And if you would
like me to be in a position I can get on Eric's list, click the Donate
button. But it would take a heck of a lot of Donate button pushes before
I'll be on that list.
Á¦ÀÌ: ±×·¯¸é ¾ó¸¶³ª ÁÁ°Ú¾î¿ä? ÀÎÅͺ信 ÀÀÇØ
Áּż °¨»çÇÕ´Ï´Ù. ½ÃûÀÚ ¿©·¯ºÐ, ¿¡·óÀÇ ¸®½ºÆ®¿¡ ³» À̸§ÀÌ ¿Ã¶ó°¡´Â °ÍÀ» ¿øÇÏ½Å´Ù¸é ±âºÎ±Ý ¹öưÀ» ´·¯ ÁÖ½ÊÀÌ¿ä. ±× ¸®½ºÆ¼¿¡
³» À̸§ÀÌ ¿Ã¶ó°¥·Á¸é ±× ±âºÎ±Ý ¹öưÀÌ ¾öû ´·¯Á®¾ß ÇÒ °Í °°½À´Ï´Ù.
End of Transcript
¡¡
Bio
Eric S. Margolis is an award-winning,
internationally syndicated foreign affairs columnist. His articles have
appeared in the New York Times, the International Herald Tribune, the
Los Angeles Times, Chicago Times, Times of London, the Gulf Times, the
Khaleej Times, Dawn, Daily News Pakistan, Sun Malaysia, Mainichi Tokyo,
U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, Globe and Mail and the American
Conservative. His internet column www.ericmargolis.com reaches global
readers on a daily basis. He is the author of two best selling books,
War at the Top of the World: The Struggle for Afghanistan And Asia, and
nominated for the Governor General's prestigious award for American Raj:
Resolving The Conflict Between The West And The Muslim World. As a war
correspondent Margolis has covered conflicts in Angola, Namibia, South
Africa, Mozambique, Lebanon, Turkist Kurdistan, Peru, Afghanistan,
Kashmir, India, Pakistan, El Salvador and Nicaragua. He was among the
first journalist to ever interview Libya¡¯s Muammar Khadaffi and was the
first to be allowed access to KGB headquarters in Lubyanka.
¡¡
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